Wednesday, April 1, 2009

Marksmanship Hunter PvE

Updated: April 23rd 2009
(Updated DPS on Go for the Throat)

Talent, Glyph and Attribute DPS are calculated given the following:
My base spec, shot rotation, 25 man raid buffs (all class buffs) and gear.

The closer you are to my spec, shot rotation, buffs and gear, the more accurate the following DPS #'s will be for you.

All of these #'s come from Shandara's Spreadsheet.

Base Spec: Marksmanship PvE 11/52/8 (post 3.1)
Normal Shot Rotation:
Rapid Fire / Blood Fury / Trinkets > Silencing Shot > Kill Shot > Serpent Sting > Chimera Shot > Arcane Shot > Aimed Shot > Steady Shot
Silencing Shot is off the GCD and can be macro'd to shots like Kill Shot was prior to 3.1.

Marksmanship Attribute DPS (post 3.1)  

Agility is still the best stat for a Marksmanship Hunter (given you are Hit capped).  Agility is king because of the 4% bonus Agility from Combat Experience, the 30% crit damage on Aimed, Steady and Chimera (Piercing Shots), and raid buffs (Blessing of Kings).  Not to mention the other crit bonuses from Mortal Shots and Marked for Death...

So stat priority is Hit (if not at 8%) > Agility > Attack Power > Crit > Armor Pen > Intellect > Haste

With Steady Shot being such a small portion of our damage, Haste is not much of a DPS boost, wish they would make Haste (and Armor Pen) affect our pet.
Marksmanship Talent DPS (post 3.1) 

Amazing Talents:
Careful Aim - Each talent point gives over 100 DPS!
Go for the Throat - First talent point gives over 300 DPS, and the 2nd even gives over 100 DPS!
Overrated Talents:
Improved Steady Shot - 21 DPS per talent point, merely okay.
Marksmanship Glyph DPS (post 3.1)   

The Glyph of Chimera Shot is increasingly better as my ms increases.  At 300ms the Glyph is worth 168 DPS, at 200ms, according to the spreadsheet, the Glyph is worth 0 DPS.  I'm guessing in actual play it will always be useful and increase DPS by a solid amount.


Anonymous said...

Silencing Shoot = aprils fool or why do you use it?

Shaedon said...

Silencing Shot so far on the PTR has been off the GCD. So even though it doesn't do much damage, it still can be macro'd with other shots and add a bit of damage.

And since mana is not an issue for Marksmanship anymore, adding Silencing Shot to the rotation will not make us go into Viper any sooner (since we won't use it at all, supposedly).

Anonymous said...

ah it's of the GCD
didn't know that, so it's ok :)
you may continue :D
nice page btw

Anonymous said...

hello, i have some questions, first of all about the thing you say that agility > AP i am not so sure about that and also are you sure for those talents? and something last the trueshot aura still cannot stuck for example with ench. Shaman's 10% AP buff after crt ? ty

Anonymous said...

(same person above) also about armor penetration as i saw it > haste is it right? and if yes then can you also write down for example which should be the priorities of a hunter? for example Max hit (till cap)> Agility > AP > CRT > Armor Penet> Haste> Intellect

Anonymous said...

also (lawl i remember 1-1 the questions) do you suggest MM than SV for 3.1 with current changes?

Shaedon said...

I'm not sure what your saying about Trueshot Aura. But for only one point its probably worth having it even if you have a Blood DK or Enh Shaman in the Raid. Wish Trueshot Aura would also give the Hunter some small buff, but oh well.

And Agility is ahead of AP, but only by a small margin. This is probably due to the talent Combat Experience (4% more Agi) and full raid buffs (Blessing of Kings).

Shaedon said...

It looks like, as of now, Survival is still 100-300 DPS better than Marksmanship in theory.

In practice, I expect Marksmanship to be even. The shot rotation is much cleaner for Marksmanship and therefor actual Marks DPS will be very close to theoretical Marks DPS.

Anonymous said...

Taking the 3 points out of hawk eye (the increased range talent) and putting it other places would be much more usefull for a pure dps spec as that is a talent of convience.

Shaedon said...

It is personal preference.

For me, Hawk Eye increases my damage on many fights: Grobbulus (don't have to move as much), Kel'Thuzad 25 man, Sapphiron 25 man, EoE 2nd phase, etc...

Scott said...

Would it be better to put 3/3 in barrage and put 1 point in unleashed fury, or 3/5 in unleashed fury?

Jeggy said...

I dont quite understand how come Improved steady shot only gives 21 dps increase per point. In real combat tested on patchwerk/dummy seems thats almost 40 dps increase per point if fully raid buffed. just simple math..arcane shot/aimedshot/chimera(instant shot not count dot) almost make up 30% of total hunter dps. by testing on dummy, compare autoshot vs steadyshot hit counts and cast speed (my autoshot 2.21 speed, steady 1.5s), I am using steadyshot 45% of the time when its up (other 55% of the time I cast chimera/aimed/arcane when its off CD).
if spreadsheet fully buffed hunter dps is 6k, total 3 points improved steadyshot in theory should contribute 15%*45%*30%*6000 = 121.5 dps, each point should worth 40 dps... which matchs my dummy test result.

however, if not in 25 man raid, each improved steadyshot talent should only contribute 20 dps in theory.

Shaedon said...

I have Improved Steady Shot doing 12 DPS with no buffs and 21 DPS with 25 man buffs.

This is the latest Spreadsheet data from Shandara.

In theory I am only able to cast Steady Shot less than 40% of the time, do you not have the Chimera Shot glyph?

Jeggy said...

I have chimera glyph,
but I cast steadyshot more, basically chimera/arcane/steady, only use aimed when moving is required. (without barrage/improved barrage, I prefer cast steady more and benefit more from improved steady talent)

In that case, steadyshot makes up 45%. I am using dps spreadsheet also..but that number just doesnt make sense to me..
I believe my calculation is not way off...if someone can point out whats wrong with my assumption.


Jeggy said...

nvm../slap myself
my calculation is way off..
should factor in another 15%
15%*15%*45%*30%*6000 = nothing..
even included critical effect..thats basically nothing..
I gonna respec now remove that 3 points..

Ryk said...

One thing I'm interested in here is why you chose aimed ahead of arcane shot in your rotation, when aimed seems to do less damage and costs much more mana.

Shaedon said...

Actually, that is one thing I forgot to update. I definitely prioritize Arcane Shot ahead of Aimed.

Anonymous said...

Why specc aimed shot?

I mean, multi shot does the same damage and same CD.

Shaedon said...

Multi-Shot does not do the same damage as Aimed Shot.

Aimed Shot gets damage bonuses from Piercing Shots and Marked for Death, while Multi-Shot does not.

Also Aimed Shot can be used on the run, and running is common in Ulduar.

Frostheim said...

I don't understand your glyphs... Serpent Sting is showing as #2. But all the glyph does is extend the duration of serpent sting -- and MM never has to reapply it since Chimera does that automatically.

What am I missing that makes the Serpent Sting glyph ever worth anything?

bacon said...

the two extra ticks of serpent sting synergize with chimera shot i believe

Shaedon said...

Serpent Sting Glyph will increase the damage of the Chimera Serpent Sting portion by quite a bit.

40% of the damage of a 21 second Serpent Sting is decently higher than a 15 second Serpent Sting.

Anonymous said...

I see rapid, trinks, silencing shot then kill shot? doesnt the target have to be below 20% health before you can use this shot?

Shaedon said...

Yes, but the shot rotation is a priority system. When you can Kill Shot, it is a very high priority.

Sylvarias said...

so i was wondering about the chimera glyph and the serpent glyph....what good does a shorter cd matter with the chimera glyph if ur adding time to your serpent sting.. also i dual wield so i can have the 2 agility chants was wondering if i should change one if not both to AP...btw great page

Shaedon said...

The Serpent Sting Glyph as a Marks Hunter is not so Serpent Sting lasts longer, it is so Chimera Shot hits harder (the serpent sting portion).

Agi enchants on weapons are fine, 1 agility is better than 2 attack power as a Marks Hunter.

Sithian said...

Hey Shaedon how's the pvp going? I've been MM for a while now in Ulduar raids and have been hitting the top of the recount charts everytime without fail, but a new hunter with some blue gear has joined the guild being a survival now usually i dont have any problem with the other survival hunters in the guild but this guy is smashing my dps ... Is it time I changed back to Survival if i wanna achieve that good dps push?

I was hoping MM was better than Survival for dps? Whats your opinion?



Shaedon said...

Theoretical Marks PvE DPS is slightly lower than the Theoretical Survival PvE DPS, by about 2%.

Actual DPS should be above even, as the Marks DPS rotation is simpler than the Survival DPS rotation (don't have to keep track of Serpent Sting or Black Arrow).

In 10 man Ulduar I hit about 3-4k DPS on bosses, as Marks. On 25 man VoA I hit 4-5k DPS as Marks.

Sithian said...

So you think I should just carry on with Marks? Im hitting around the same as you and I suppose with Marks Im benefitting the raid with the 10% AP buff as well?

I think i'll change back to MM then

Shaedon said...

If you have an Enhancement Shaman or a Blood DK you probably have the 10% AP in your raid.

I believe Marks can keep up with Survival for the most part, especially with the latest buffs to weapons (Chimera Shot benefits from upgrading your ranged weapon, Explosive Shot does not).

If you enjoy the Marks playstyle, stay Marks.

Caius said...

It is also pretty important to use Readiness every single time is ready, just make sure you use first a ChimeraS and Rapid Kill, so basically yo'll have an huge boost in just 2 secs or so.

And, yes Silencing shot must be on your rotation, or at least use it to interrupt Boss's spells.

Although seems easy, I still see many MM hunters straggling with rotations. If you are a good Marks, you should include some 6/7 different buttoms on your rotation. Marks that can master this tree are inho pros. With full or better Naxx 25 gear I expect Marks to hit 3.4K dps easly...if you cant that you need to practice more.

Anonymous said...

as a hunter i love MM, (SV is too much work!) i personally have my gear w/ ALOT of haste. the main reason is i want my steady shots down to 1.5 sec. my question is how much haste do u need to get your SS down to 1.5 sec?

Anonymous said...

Im going to have to say i tried out your spec, and my dps went DOWN by 600, i was using the target dummy, not a spreadsheet, the spec i was using was Liandra's spec on

Shaedon said...

The point of my pages is not to give you the ultimate DPS spec.

I have to make a base build that I enjoy so that I have something to base the DPS #'s off of. My base build is not the ultimate DPS spec, but my preference.

My page allows you to see the DPS worth of each talent and glyph so you can pick and choose the talents and glyphs you enjoy and gain some knowledge in the mean time.

Kaeti said...

This is a pretty nice page, but why wild quiver? To me it seems like a waste mostly because if you shouoldn't be auto shooting, just my pref.

Shaedon said...

Autoshooting happens automatically when you stand still in a fight. You want to stand still as much as possible to increase you dps as a hunter.

It is somewhat similar to melee dps classes that auto attack when they are close to the target, although they do not have to stand still (sigh).

Jon said...

I like your good thoughts and the efficient way you present it in. A question though: When focusing on DPS, is Aspect Mastery really worth the effort, sinc you have to put 3 points in health to get it (ET and IRP). It's worth 52 DPS in your calc, but really 52/4=13DPS counting ET and IRP, or am I wrong?

Shaedon said...

Aspect Mastery is probably not worth it in 25 mans, as the Viper bonus will hardly ever be seen. In 10 and 5 mans it might be worth it for the Viper bonus if you find yourself in it semi-frequently in boss fights. Otherwise you are probably right and more points should just go in Marksmanship.

Anonymous said...

This needs to be seriously updated, marksmanship is now the best spec for hunters in endgame gear, and the spec is wrong.

Shaedon said...

The base spec used is not the best spec in terms of DPS. It was just the spec I chose to run. Since I ran that spec as Marks I made my calculations concerning talent DPS from that spec.

Basically, just look to the Talent DPS #'s to try and figure out your own spec.

I know some of those numbers might not be the same as they were post 3.1, but it should still be pretty accurate.

Come Cataclysm I will most likely update all of the PvE pages here as Blizzard is going to massively change each tree (and the huge mana to focus change will change a ton of talents).

Anonymous said...

i have a question,
i started play hunter 2 months ago
have a gear from 5.1k and am looking for the best pve spec where i do as much dammage as possible
i see moost of this site is from a year ago, so is everything on this site still the same as in game?

i see you guys all know much about hunters, so pls help me

Shaedon said...

Hunter Marks 7/57/7 Build

That is the talent build for Marks that would probably be the most damage at the moment. The two points into Go for the Throat might be overkill but on movement fights its dps increase would be higher than an extra point in Improved Arcane Shot.

If you don't really like Improved Steady Shot you could replace those three talents with Improved Arcane Shot and there wouldn't be too much difference.

I don't really PvE anymore but when I did I would always get 3/3 Hawk Eye since for most fights range was important or super convenient. But for highest theoretical dps those talents would not be picked up.

Anonymous said...

could anyone tell me how the hell to do 1k dps for a pet?
mine is doing 500...

Shaedon said...

If your pet is not buffed with every kind of buff it really kills your pets dps.

Anonymous said...

How come you don't have any more ARP? You are a marksman hunter after all

Shaedon said...

This post was pretty much before Armor Pen started appearing all over PvE gear.

Setsuya said...

I would just like to add that the 2/2 go for the throat talent isn't actually that useful, considering your pets' dps only increases minimally when upped from 1. I'm not at 80 yet, but I imagine 1/5 efficiency or, some other beneficial talent would help the dps more than go for the throat 2/2?